User talk:TheSpectator/Archive3

From the OblivioWiki – your guide to everything Oblivion

Contents 1 FA/Collab templates 2 The Vile Lair 3 Castle Varaldo? 4 Eras 5 Something Strange 6 New FA Image 7 Downloads? 8 Needed Information 9 Competition 10 Un-needed Extras 11 Quest Trouble 12 New Collaboration Image 13 An update

[edit] FA/Collab templates

Do you think you could throw together an infobox template that one could put onto articles that are nominated for Collaboration or Featured Article? {{FA}} and {{Coll}} perhaps. They could say simply something like: "This article is nominated for ___, visit (FA) / (Collab) to vote and discuss the nomination".--Patito 09:03, 7 September 2006 (CDT)

Okay, done at Template:Fac and Template:Collab-nom. Feel free to reword them as well. --theSpectator _talk 19:03, 8 September 2006 (CDT)

[edit] The Vile Lair

Hey Spec, I was wondering if you had The Vile Lair official plug-in, or if you knnow if there's anyone else on Obliviowiki who has the plug in. I've run into a problem with the two levelled items that the mod adds, the Raiment of the Crimson Scar and the Crimson Eviscerator. I don't have the proper base value and need to confirm the max armor value, but I can't seem to get a hold of the levelled items beyond the first level version, especially with the Crimson Eviscerator, regardless of the level of my character. It also won't let me add the item with the console and I haven't found it in the testing hall either. I've tried dozens of times and wasted hours trying to get these items to no avail and I've given up so I was wondering if there is someone else who could try and fill in the missing information on those articles to make sure it's not just me being an idiot. Thanks. \*\ Hellhound43 10:46, 11 September 2006 (CDT)

I have the mod, though I haven't had time to actually go through it yet. I'll see if I can play around with it sometime this week (hopefully) and let you know if anything turns up. Great job with the work you've done on those mod articles, by the way! --theSpectator _talk 21:42, 11 September 2006 (CDT)

Thanks! LOL, I just noticed that there is a leveled item page, as I'm getting into putting in all the levelled stuff. I found it odd that it was spelled that way but I looked it up and both spellings seem ok. But the page is too long and will get longer if it keeps being added to so I'm going to take out the tables and just keep the links (and fix them, the Apron of Adroitness isn't light armor). Should I include a brief description of each item? I also re-made the TES3:Morrowind page today. I'll start the expansion pages later this week along with more levelled items. So I'm going to be pretty busy but if you have anything you'd rather I work on first just let me know and I'll hop to it :). \*\ Hellhound43 22:02, 11 September 2006 (CDT)

Good work with the Morrowind article; I also felt that what it originally had (the copied info) was inappropriate, so thanks for taking that up and rewriting. Feel free to work on what you wish! I've also updated the main page with the new featured articles and collaboration projects we've been working on. --theSpectator _talk 22:06, 11 September 2006 (CDT)

The main page looks good. Maybe it's just my computer, but the Arena page's featured article signifier is a small imageless "box" (for lack of a better word) in the very top right corner outside the standard bounds of the article, in both firefox and IE. The Tamriel page looks good with the collaboration box though. \*\ Hellhound43 22:30, 11 September 2006 (CDT)

Yeah, I noticed the imageless box as well on my computer (I use IE), though it had worked a few days ago. I'm not sure why it might be like that. --theSpectator _talk 22:32, 11 September 2006 (CDT)

[edit] Castle Varaldo?

I seem to have stumbled onto something interesting, and I'm not exactly sure what to make of it. I was working in the TES:CS trying to figure out the extents of the province of Cyrodiil for a map I'm making for the ingredient page, when I spotted a cell by the name CastleVaraldoExterior. It's the only cell that begins with castle, so naturally curious I loaded the cell in the render window and looked at the objects in the cell. To add more to my curiosity I found nothing but trees, rocks and flora in the cell. So I checked to see if there was an interior cell with a similar name, and there is one called CastleVaraldo which contained a throne and a bunch of silverware and static objects, but no cells refrence this interior. Instead of just opening it in the render window I decided to load up the game and teleport myself there. It's pretty dark but there are lights, and the room looks like the Castle Leyawiin throne room, with the adjacent dining hall. There are four display cases, some silverware in the dining room, but weirdest of all, all the chairs are backwards, including the throne chair.

So I'm really not sure what to think of this and wondered what you might think (or know?). Did the developers use this as a test cell? Abandon a quest idea? Future official plug in (crosses fingers)? If you'd like to check it out:

• coc "CastleVaraldo"
• coc "CastleVaraldoExterior"

Confused and Curious, \*\ Hellhound43 20:05, 15 September 2006 (CDT)

It's probably a leftover testing stage for something. like the testinghall. --William Blackstaff 09:13, 16 September 2006 (CDT)

That's the conclusion I would have come to if there was no exterior cell for it like for the testinghall or toddtest or hawkhaven (which is in it's own world). But the fact that there there is one for Castle Varaldo indicated to me something that was removed or unfinished. I am kind of hoping for an official plug-in that caters to combat characters sometime soon. To me, castle format would be the best suited for a warrior character to give a lord sort of feel to it instead of the lone wizard or the dark assassin or the pirate king. \*\ Hellhound43 11:28, 16 September 2006 (CDT)

I have no idea if this is any relation, but there are rumors of another plugin titled "Dragonfire Castle", which is supposed to be a castle that is oriented towards warriors and warrior lords. See this image from an article (don't know which magazine it's from). Doing a Google on "Dragonfire Castle" reveals some interesting rumors:

• Forum topic on Gamespot
• Forum topic at Xbox.com
• Forum post at HDTV Arcade Discussion

So yes, it's possible, like the Orrery, that the developers put it in and didn't finish it, so that it could be released as a plugin later. However, I don't know if this is Castle Varaldo, or if it's something completely separate. --theSpectator _talk 16:48, 16 September 2006 (CDT)

Well, after looking at the image, the exterior cell for Castle Varaldo is a very hilly region similar to the picture, but I can't seem to find a view direction that would give a similar mountain range so maybe I'm wrong. I guess we'll have to wait and see, but the Dragonfire Castle sure does sound nice. Thanks Spec. \*\ Hellhound43 19:48, 16 September 2006 (CDT)

[edit] Eras

Hey Spec I'm working on the Era articles and I was wondering if it would be ok if I just copied the descriptions for each of the five eras from The Imperial Library and then cited the source page as being from the Imperial Library. The only other thing with that is that I would be doing a fair bit of modifying of the contents of the timelines as some of the descriptions have very bad grammar. It would still certainly save me some time though rather than rewriting it all from scratch as that's where my main source is anyway. Also, I was wondering if I could get your opinion on the map (or maps, I'm not sure yet) for the flora that I'm in the beginning process of making by e-mailing it or something before I upload them on the server. It probably won't be ready for another week or two, but I'm going to start working on it tomorrow afternoon. Let me know, \*\ Hellhound43 22:09, 21 September 2006 (CDT)

I would say yes, however, I think it'd be more appropriate if you asked them first, since I don't know what licenses they're under and how they would take rewriting of their work. --theSpectator _talk 00:56, 22 September 2006 (CDT)

True, but overnight I thought about it and I've decided it would be best if I just linked to the appropiate pages. \*\ Hellhound43 09:18, 22 September 2006 (CDT)

[edit] Something Strange

Something stange happened and I'm a bit confused but it may warrant a ban or three... First of all I just reverted a page edit to the claymore page from 24.70.95.203.

Secondly, this comment was posted on FireFox's talk page (see recent changes list):

Hi.

Hiya, not to seem rude, but would you mind packing up and leaving? ... or doing me... in bed? 172.200.93.236 14:39, 26 September 2006 (CDT)

Then just afterward the user changed the IP to show:

Hi.

Hiya, not to seem rude, but would you mind packing up and leaving? ... or doing me... in bed? Gravewit 13:37, 26 September 2006 (CDT)

Eight minutes later 88.111.121.120 made two comments on the page, first: [1]

But I can't seem to get onto the page from the second edit (difference page or current version of the page), but I get this error:

A database query syntax error has occurred. This may indicate a bug in the software. The last attempted database query was: (SQL query hidden) from within function "MediaWikiBagOStuff::_doquery". MySQL returned error "1205: Lock wait timeout exceeded; try restarting transaction (208.100.1.138)".

I believe that last IP is for the server at my college.

Actually it looks like every time I try to access the page the server clogs up, or at least my browser does. This looks like vandalism to me but I'll leave it to your decision. Should I also post this on Gravewit's talk page?? \*\ Hellhound43 16:43, 26 September 2006 (CDT)

Blocked the two FireFox talk spammers for a week. Warned the claymore guy. The reason for the errors and server stuff is that Gravewit is transferring to new servers (see: the blog), so I think it's just temporary stuff. --theSpectator _talk 21:06, 26 September 2006 (CDT)

[edit] New FA Image

I've got a first draft of the FA Image, but I need to know how many pixels it needs to be. Let me know so I can upload it, \*\ Hellhound43 20:48, 26 September 2006 (CDT)

I'm not sure how many pixels it should be. Just upload it and we'll see how it turns out. --theSpectator _talk 21:06, 26 September 2006 (CDT)

Ok I uploaded the image and as you will see it is rather large. From this point feel free to do with the image as you wish or you can just ask me here if there's anything you'd like done to it. EDIT: I re-uploaded a smaller version of the image that still looks almost as clear. It's still about twice as big as you're current FA star. \*\ Hellhound43 21:47, 26 September 2006 (CDT)

When I'm done with my next version of the FA image should I just overwrite the current FA-star.png image, or upload it as, for example FA-star2.png? Let me know, \*\ Hellhound43 23:03, 26 September 2006 (CDT)

Hmm... You can overwrite the old one. Much easier than uploading a new one, changing the links to the new one, and deleting the old one. I doubt we'll be using the old one in the future. Also, you can still leave the Image:Oht.png as that could potentially be used for something. --theSpectator _talk 00:16, 27 September 2006 (CDT)

0o, having a problem with overwriting the Image:FA-star.png old file, see the page's history for my uploads in between reverts. For now I reverted it back to the old version, and uploaded the large version. Not sure what's going on there, but it's only a draft for now anyway. Over the next few days I'm hoping to improve it, I was thinking of putting a wrinkled paper texture behind it, similar to the shop signs in The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind. Let me know if you think of anything regarding the problem or on how to improve the image. Is the old small File:FAdraft.png going to be deleted? \*\ Hellhound43 07:56, 27 September 2006 (CDT)

I looked at the history of the older picture (FA-star), and your uploads looked okay with me. But it's alright and we can just leave it lik that. I was playing with Template:Featured article and there is a slight difference between FA-large and FAdraft when small in size. Either looks okay with me. Compare:

FA-large at 12px:

FAdraft at 15px: File:FAdraft.png

As for the texture background, give it a try and upload another version. We may or may not need the background for something like Template:Featured, if we want to match the background to the background color behind the text. --theSpectator _talk 08:30, 27 September 2006 (CDT)

Maybe it's just the computer I'm on at the College but the FA-large looks better at 12px, but still kind of sketchy. I think I'll work on a special "icon" version later after I get home tonight, and another slightly larger 30px version for the Template:Featured article. \*\ Hellhound43 09:02, 27 September 2006 (CDT)

Ok I've uploaded the new image sizes and resized the image on the template to better show the image. The only possible problem now is that the FA images (either of them) don't fit into the top right of the article properly. \*\ Hellhound43 17:52, 27 September 2006 (CDT)

At Template:featured article, the little icon in the corner is cut off, so I resized it to 15px. --theSpectator _talk 19:10, 27 September 2006 (CDT)

Looks good, I think that about wraps it up. Thanks Spec. If you need anything just leave a message on my talk page. \*\ Hellhound43 19:26, 27 September 2006 (CDT)

I've uploaded a FA candidate image that I think might work, Image:FA-Can.png. If you like it go ahead and attach it, and let me know if there's anything else regarding that image. Now that I've seen it resized I think I'll probably upload a new version with a darker outline that doesn't disappear. I'll also start working on the collab image soon too. \*\ Hellhound43 10:43, 30 September 2006 (CDT)

Looks good in large, however, like you said, it needs bolder outlines when made small. --theSpectator _talk 17:53, 1 October 2006 (CDT)

[edit] Downloads?

In case you haven't noticed, a while ago a new member with no other contributions posted a new section on the item page with a link to a zip file that is supposed to contain ID's for all the items. I don't see why this is necessary as we already have lists in item IDs. I don't want to just revert the page just in case so I'm wondering what you thought about this as I'm getting a leery feeling about it :-/. \*\ Hellhound43 23:02, 27 September 2006 (CDT)

You can just remove it and link to the item IDs page from there. --theSpectator _talk 08:00, 28 September 2006 (CDT)

Done. \*\ Hellhound43 08:05, 28 September 2006 (CDT)

[edit] Needed Information

Hey, there are a few things that you dont have withing your quest section, such as the starting npc, and possible but not guaranteed rewards and how to get them. Although the information is on a copyrighted site, http://www.gamebanshee.com/oblivion/mainquest.php (check the side panels for all quests and other info), you can still borrow their information using the MLA citing format (for help with MLA, http://www.oslis.k12.or.us/MLACitations/secondary/index.php, NOTE: you must not alter the format that is given to you, ie: adding or removing returns, spaces, etc.). Along with citing you must also use parenthetical citations,

ie:

Web page.

Abraham Lincoln's birthplace was designated as a National Historical Site in 1959 (National Park Service). Note: Internet citations follow the style of printed works. Personal or corporate author and page number should be given if they exist on the website.

if you would like me to do the citing for you, you can contact me at kill_dozed@hotmail.com

I agree that our Main Quest-related articles needs some work (wording, expansion, pictures, alternate walkthroughs, etc.). However, our articles pretty much have the jist of the main quest, and they actually do contain starting NPC and other information; it just doesn't clearly label it on the top. I would prefer not to use information from other sites, copyrighted or not, as OblivioWiki strives to build it's own content. The exception is regarding Elder Scrolls lore, as we don't have an ES-lore buff around, and we only briefly summarize history (The Imperial Library and UESP are great sites for ES history and lore). However, feel free to clean up and expand the main quest articles yourself. --theSpectator _talk 09:36, 29 September 2006 (CDT)

[edit] Competition

Looks like you have some competition, main page: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Main_Page / subcatagory Oblivion: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion, but dont worry your site is way better than theirs so its not like your losing a supporter/viewer/writer. They have some good stuff that you (?might?) need and are a wiki site so you have permission to take it, as from the previous comment, I can see you want to be origional but your going to need some help along the way so here it is. Also try having more pictures for all the stuff, as a suggestion, maybe you could get pictures for the mini-maps of each quest, such as the layout of a building, pictures of all the items, NPCs, etc.

How did you make this "mini" wiki site, I am thinking about making one myslef (a different topic than yours) and have no idea about the details.

We aren't competing with UESP, who has been around for over a decade since the original Elder Scrolls games. Both of our sites offer unique content presented in different ways, just like the many Oblivion-related and Elder Scrolls-related sites are unique in their own ways.

As for creating this site, I didn't create it, I merely manage and contribute to it. Gravewit runs the site (along with our sister sites) and servers. You can talk to him about how to run wikis because I don't know much myself. I believe Wikipedia can give you some information on wikis (see the links at the bottom also). Wikia is a collection of many wikis and you might be able to start your own.

Feel free to start adding content and screenshots to the site. I'd prefer if you added new talk at the bottom of this page, instead of the top ;-). Lastly, please sign your comments on talk pages with four tildes like this: ~~~~. --theSpectator _talk 19:42, 29 September 2006 (CDT)

[edit] Un-needed Extras

I feel really dumb right now, but I think I have it all figured out. First would you like me to move all that mess at the top of the page to the bottom? Also, a user, Mattw, has loaded a newer an ineffective and possibly copyright infringed map on maps. All he did was copy and paste over the copyright tag with a picture editing program, I went and found the site of the rightful owner, which happend to already been linked under the title Cyrodiil and just added to the external links in maps by me. I do not know your preference on these acts but do as you will. Sorry for junking up your page so much, Ill try not to for now on.

Killd0zed 21:26, 29 September 2006 (CDT)

^ P.S. I think I understand but is this how I am supposed to sign it? If not please explain.

Heh, don't feel dumb at all :-D; wikis take a bit of getting used to. And feel free to comment on my page about anything (I moved the talk down, btw). And yse, you got the signature right, as it should auto-sign with timestamp.

As for the map, I removed it from the maps page, and placed the image up for deletion, since it was uploaded without permission. Unless he can prove that he got permission (or that it's his, which it most likely isn't), it'll be deleted very soon.

Also, if you'd like some help on editing, see our Help:Editing page or Wikipedia's editing help page. --theSpectator _talk 21:42, 29 September 2006 (CDT)

[edit] Quest Trouble

I am having trouble with two Quests. First one Unfriendly Competion: I have followed Thornonir and then Agarmir but when I get in the house there is no book there is a shovel but no proof to take back. I have done this a couple of times, I'm not sure but is there a problem if either of them sees me? Need Help. Second one is when I go and meet Baurus for the first time he tells me to sit down that he is being watched. Where exactly should I stand? Nothing else seems to happen. He doesn;t get up, doesn't say anything else. Really need your help. Get back to me at lisa1lee2@aol.com October 24,2006 p

Sorry for moving your post down Midnight Mia but I was confused at what you had posted lol and I didn't want the same to happen to TheSpectator (he's busy enough as it is ;-) ). As far as Unfriendly Competition is concerned I'm not sure what the problem would be and I didnt see anything in the article's page. If you're playing on the PC, you're in luck as I have a solution for that (two actually), but if you're on X360, well then I have no clue what to do I'm afraid; just make sure that you checked the table with the candles in his basement for the book I guess.

On the PC if you open up the console (the ~ key) you have one of two options, you can either insert the book into our inventory (and then read it I assume to advance the quest) or you can simply advance the quest without the book (though you may have to do this more than once). I'll just tell you how to add the book, if it doesn't work just post a message on my talk page. Just type the following into the console (without !'s): !player.additem "1D046" 1! and you should now have the book. Hopefully that will work.

As far as the Baurus meeting goes, you need to sit on one of the stools (right beside him always works for me). He should then advance the quest by talking to you after you've sat down. If not, as before feel free to ask on my talk page, or below this paragraph. Hope this all works out for you, \*\ Hellhound43 00:50, 25 October 2006 (CDT).

Thanks for addressing that, Hellhound. Other than what Hellhound said, Mia, I'm not sure what else could be the issue. --theSpectator _talk 11:42, 25 October 2006 (CDT)

Really appreciate the help. The Baurus meeting I rally feel silly. Should have been able to figure out how to sit down. Still having trouble with the other.. Did what Hellbound said with the book but now when I go and see Thoronir all I get is welcome back. When I try to follow him at night all that happens now is after he meets Agarmir the green arrow just goes with Thoronir. I know it is somthing really simple but I just can not figure it out. I played all of Morrowind so far and have never seemed to have this much trouble. This one reminds me of a combinatin of Myst(levers and such), Krondar (Chests), Kings Quest (Early versions/i.e Menues{The menues in Morrowind were much easier when you had them all there together and putting things where you wanted was a lot easier). Sorry for digressing. Don't get it wrong I like the game but. Thos os the first time I have signed on to one of these game pages and I think this one is the best I have seen. Sorry if I seem like a beginner. I really feel stupid having to ask these questions. If I can help anywhere let me know I would like to not sure how much I can help though since I seem to be having so many problems. Thanks for your help. By the way I am using the PC Version with the Update. Midnight Mia--Midnight Mia 21:47, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

There's no need to be sorry, I'm pretty sure everyone on this wiki has one story or another of a really stupid thing they have done or couldn't figure out in Oblivion at one time or another. Mine was spending hours upon hours trying to find a spell merchant that sold a fortify skill spell in Vanilla Oblivion just a little while after it was released, then I found out the hard way that there was no-one. I also spent a few hours trying to figure out how to toggle the constant effect enchantments for on-use enchantments like in Morrowind during the enchanting process. I too am a veteran of Morrowind though I never actually got around to finishing the main quest (though I'm planning on doing so after I've done the same for Oblivion). I always get caught up not knowing what I want in my character or just getting bored after a couple days of playing as that char. Mostly I tend to lean towards stealthy characters because I find them the most fun but I always change my mind sooner or later so I tend to make new characters often.

As far as your quest problem is concerned, first of all did you read the book after you added it into your inventory? Did a quest advancement occur? Also, when you follow Thoronir to his meeting place with Agarmir, you need to follow Agarmir after the conversation is finished back to his house in the Talos Plaza District (I think that's where it is). I'm sure you already knew that but I wanted to check anyway. I also want to check to make sure you WAITED outside his house until he left before entering (I think that's around 11am). If you've done all of this and the quest advanced yes you need to go talk to Thoronir and confront him with the book. He should then tell you where Agarmir went and then you can go stop him. Then you need to grab his shovel and report back to Thoronir and then Jensine. If you still have problems with the quest we can do it the easier way and just use the console to advance the quest. If it gets to that please leave a message on my talk page and I can walk you through it if you don't know how to use the function for it.

As far as Obliviowiki is concerned, yes we could definitely use your help! There's still ALOT of work to be done lol. Spec and I are basically the two most active members right now and we're both pretty busy with College so we don't have as much time to spend wikiing as we'd like to. I'll assume you have very little wiki experience, which is ok as when I signed up in late August I had no clue how to edit either. This page on Wikipedia is very useful for the basics of editing. You might also want to take a quick gander over here, as many of Wikipedia's policy guidelines exist for us as well, but I don't think you'll have any trouble with that. As far as what to edit that's really up to you, if there's something you notice on our site that needs improvement or doesn't have a related article at all feel free to get started on anything like that. If you want some ideas you could take a look at the Collaborations page for current and nominee collaboration projects. The two projects we've elected so far haven't recieved alot of attention at all, unfortunately. You could also take a look on my user page, as I'm maintaining a to-do list of things I'd like to add or edit on Obliviowiki. Spec also has a (slightly less complete) to-do list on his user page. If you ever have any other questions feel free to ask. Good luck with your quest trouble and we hope to see you around! (Sorry if this message was too long lol) \*\ Hellhound43 22:35, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

[edit] New Collaboration Image

Hey Spec I've finally finished the nomination image for the Collaborations (reduced size). I'll for the confirmed collaboration image I'm planning on simply removing the "portal" part of the gate, which will probably take a few more days or so for me to get around to doing. What do you think? \*\ Hellhound43 00:56, 25 October 2006 (CDT)

Looks good; I like it. --theSpectator _talk 11:42, 25 October 2006 (CDT)

Ok I changed the image for the nomination template. I'll get started on the nomination image soon, should have it done by Friday. \*\ Hellhound43 13:07, 25 October 2006 (CDT)

Got the collab image done. Here it is . What do you think? \*\ Hellhound43 00:13, 27 October 2006 (CDT)

[edit] An update

Hey Spec how's it going? I just noticed you've switched to Firefox... I thought you said you hated firefox? LOL.

Anyway, I've been working hard on College and my GIS project for this site and I just wanted to let you know that I'm making progress. I'm wondering though if it would be a problem if I uploaded about 26 image files for each of the ingredients (they wouldnt be too high resolution I don't think). I would rather do one of those iMAPs you can find on municipal sites and the like, but I have no clue how they work or if it can be used in a wiki.

The project is still going to take me another week or two unless I get a little help from somewhere. \*\ Hellhound43 13:17, 17 November 2006 (CST)

Haha, more like I 'did not care for' Firefox, lol. I tried it long time ago and it was clunky to me (probably because it was still new) and wasn't worth much, but since 2.0 came out, it's good stuff.

As for the image files, feel free to upload as many as needed, as I'm not sure what the iMAP thing is or if it will work with the wiki.

Take your time, and if you need help with something that I could help with, let me know. --theSpectator _talk 12:17, 18 November 2006 (CST)

Hmm, well that depends on how much time you have really. I have 4,932 cells in a list that I need to extract flora data for from the CS. Obviously, thats a lot of cells. I have a table arranged in Microsoft Excel that has columns for each of the ingredients I need to do (I just checked, and there's 61 of them!). If you'd like to help out with some of the cells I could send you the xml file if you have excel or I could send you a text file that shows all the necessary cells (I already weeded out about 12,000 cells that aren't used; I'm glad I have Excel lol). You saw my e-mail adress earlier, so you can add me on MSN or just send me a plain e-mail so I have yours. \*\ Hellhound43 13:03, 18 November 2006 (CST)

I feel the hate :( ----FireFox 17:28, 19 November 2006 (CST)

Haha, sorry 'bout that FireFox. But it's cool now because I've ditched IE and now am in your ranks. :P

Hellhound, I do have Excel. I'll send you an e-mail soon; just tell me what I gotta do and I'll try to do it over Thanksgiving break. --theSpectator _talk 23:05, 19 November 2006 (CST)